V8 Swaping

[SafariRob]

Here's the torque and HP dyno graph from the GMPP catalog for the RamJet 350:




I particularly like the power available way down low in the RPM range; the fact that the engine runs out of breath at 5200 RPM is also good in my opinion. I'm not interested in running at high RPM and the tach in my 89 consistently shows me that I rarely break 4000 RPM. No high winding engine for me, please!

Peter, Betty's already pitchin' at the bit to head to the Great White North because of you...Sheesh, didn't I tell you not to hit her with that Frenchy talk when we got to NECO 07? But did you listen? Nooooo! Now I have to put up with the aftermath! Lol.

[lockdoc]

The cam in the Ramjet is the cam I have in my 350. It is also used in the GMPP 383. Lotsa low end torque and designed for fuel injection. I'm pretty sure I did the measurements before and it WILL fit the AstroSafari.

[SafariRob]

I hear what you are saying, Robo, the ECM in the RamJet 350 is programmed for the cam that the engine is equipped with. No way would I ever swap the cam out for something different. Trust me, folks, I've learned the hard way on this topic. If you want grief, let The Committee of They Say, Automotive Division, decide what cam an EFI engine should have.

Bill, I didn't see the cam part number for this engine...must've been drooling so much that I missed it.

Here's a link to an installation article that appeared in Carcraft magazine: http://www.carcraft.com/howto/56398/

Don't know the year of the article, but they mention that the engine costs $4500. Ah, yes, a few years back and a couple of hundred cheaper...but I also notice that the ECM system is version 3, not 4 like it is now. If I understand correctly, version 4 has closed loop air/fuel control, where version 3 is open loop only. The above article doesn't mention adding an O2 sensor for version 3, so it can't be closed loop capable.

[lockdoc]

Specifications:
Horespower - 350 Hp @ 5200 RPM
Torque - 400 Ft Lbs. @3500 RPM
Max Reccomended RPM-5500
Compression Ratio- 9.4:1

Engine assembly Consists Of:
Block-Cast iron, 2 Bolt Main, 1 Piece rear seal

Crankshaft-Part # 10243068 Nodular iron

Connecting Rods-Part 10108688 Powdered Metal

Pistons-Part # 12522850 Hypereutectic Flat top

Camshaft- Hydraulic Roller-Part # 14097395
Intake Lift-.431" Intake Duration @ .050-206
Exhaust Lift-.451" Exhaust Duration @ .050-196 Lobe Centerline-109

Lifters- Part # 17120735 Hydraulic Roller

Rocker Arms- Part # 12367346 Full roller 1.6: Ratio

Cylinder Heads- Part# 12550060 Cast iron Vortec Heads 64cc Combustion Chamber,170 cc Intake runner Volume , 1.94" Intake valve, 1.50" Exhaust Valve.

Intake Manifold- Part # 12489371 - Ramjet multi-port Aluminum

Fuel Injectors- part# 17124248 - Standard LT1 Injector 22 lb.s per hour

Distributor-part # 1104060- HEI, Small cap design with external coil

Spark Plugs-Part # AC Delco - R42LTS gapped @ .045"

Throttle Body- part # 17113520 - Very similar to 1998 Camaro LS1

Engine Controls- ECU- G.M. MEFI 4 Controller , self contained , (New with MEFI4 closed loop ) speed density control. ecu inputs consist of O2 sensor ,coolant temp,throttle position,manifold absolute pressure,intake manifold temp Knock sensor Signal .ecu outputs consist of injector control, complete spark and timing control,IAC and fuel pump control.
The New MEFI 4 Controller incororates a "green engine rev limiter" This rev limiter is set so that maximum engine rpm for the first 3 hours of run time does not exeed 3500 rpm.Once this 3 hour period is diminished, normal rev limiter is engaged @ 5500 rpm.

MISC.
This engine is equipped with an 8" Harmonic balancer, 14" manual transmission flywheel,6 Quart truck type oil pan, timing cover , chrome valve covers,180 thermostat and chrome housing,cast iron long style water pump ,V belt rotation with 79'-86' power steering pump boss.

NOTES-
This engine does not include a fuel pump,It is very highly reccomended that an in tank fuel pump is used .Pump required must be capable of 45 p.s.i. and 175 Liters per hour fuel flow. A fuel return line to the tank is also needed.

[peter]

My 2005 catalogue states the green period as being 4k rpm for the 1st hr, 4.5k the 2nd hr and 56944661161.5k for the 3rd hr. As well, the top of the Ramjet manifold to the top of the horizontal section of the intake manifold mounting surface of the block is only 9.75". On my 502, that measurement grows to 11", which is still not bad at all. According to the catalogue, 11" is only .5" higher than a BB running a high-rise intake & Holley 4bbl.

C'mon Robby, go for it! The MEFI4 is trouble-free as compared to the MEFI3, which had idling/surging issues etc

[SafariRob]

Well, thanks, Bill. Now I know what all the part numbers are. I've been looking around on the net to see if there is any buzz about this engine and haven't found much. Had hoped to find dissatisfied owners just to see if there were weak links or problems with the engine. Didn't find any of that, though, which could be good.
One topic I did find concerned getting all the parts and building a copy using a pre-owned 350 block. The guy didn't break it down, he just wondered why it couldn't be done. Figure I'll get the separate prices added up just to see if it's worth it. Frankly, I really like the idea of getting a motor--pre-built and ready to go--out of a box. That attitude might be a little surprising, but I definitely wonder if there are any good automotive machine shops out there anymore. I spoke with a local drag racer who builds engines about this. He has to farm out some of the work to machine shops and he's having a problem getting quality work from shops in the area. That never used to be a problem, but many of the shops have changed hands when the original owner retired and the new owner now seeks revenue over precision.
'Course, as I'm sure Peter is ready to type, there's no absolutes when you get a GMPP engine either as to the quality and precision of the workmanship. But at least there's a warranty.

[SafariRob]

Peter, is your Safari's 502 throttle connection similar to this:



The photo is of the one in the Carcraft article and I am wondering how you made the connection to the throttle if it's similar. The article points out that a longer throttle cable was needed--I can see an issue here with how the cable runs on my 89 and making it work with the 350RJ (I'm getting tired of typing RamJet), plus making it work with a 700R4.
Actually, I've been considering a modification to my 89 since I installed the carb to clean up the engine and get the TV cable out of there. The thought of this engine needing custom work for the TV operation has spurred me along a bit in that direction.
It's all very hazy at this point, but I'm entertaining the thought of having the throttle pedal cable connecting to a shaft (possibly located under the van below the driver's seat area) that has the necessary cam lobes to allow connection and adjustment of the TV cable and a throttle cable to the carb/TBI. There would also be a way of operating a Throttle Position Sensor, if it were needed for some electronic controller.
Like I said, just a thought at this time, but I like the idea of getting the TV cable off of the carb--it would make trying out different carburetors so much easier and would delete one cable from the engine assembly, too.

Peter, thanks for the height measurements of the RJ intake. Can you believe I sent for the installation manual without first measuring the available space in the engine bay of the Astro? I ain't nothin' if not an impulse buyer.

[Rebel]

Code: Select all

G'head, Robby. Go fer it! What's the worst that can happen? Betty'll get pissed at ya and move up here with me in Canada where she can join my harem and listen to me croon her in french LOLOLOLOLOL
[quote] O:)  O:) 

Rob,,I'm not sure if you're aware of it yet so I wanted to chime in just to let you know it's a done deal. You can't help yourself at this point. :-({|= 
Now if Betty approves, it's because Petey told her at NECO he'd be down to help do the install. lol

Sad part about it is, we'll have one less carbed member joining the high tech world of today.

So when's the order going to be placed ? ON building your own,,,think you'll find it a savings or at least a wash getting the crate plus you'll have a warrenty.
Good luck with the sleepless nights.[/quote]

[Rebel]

Well,guess I need a few lessons on posting a quote.

[peter]

One would deduce that, by the looks of your posts. Indeed!

[SafariRob]

Larry, as you know, I have no problems using a carb--carburetors are nothing less than an art form and an analog air/fuel mixing computer in my book.
But I've dumped a ton of cash and time into this project and have yet to come up with a reliable setup. I've come to the realization that I don't really trust the motive foundation of this whole van: the engine and the transmission. Both were rebuilt by "professionals" and I have problems with each of them.
So, it's either time to walk away from it or attack it again with a lot more savvy gained from experience.
Here's my thoughts:
Remove the 305 and install the RJ350
Rebuild the 700R4 myself

I added the "myself" there to indicate that I will trust no one to rebuild anything on my van but myself. If it turns out hosed, I'll have no one to blame but myself, and that's the way I want it.

Further, I'd like a gen2 front end on the 89. It's not that I dislike the looks of the first generations, but I want the extra space in front of the engine that the later models provide.
Dutch doors would be nice, too, but I can live with the cargo doors that are there.
Also, I'd like to change out the rear axle to a 3.42 ratio and some type of limited slip, but I haven't given that much thought yet.
Anyway, it's all just in the thinking about it phase now.

[peter]

Here's my thoughts:
Remove the 305 and install the RJ350
Rebuild the 700R4 myself

.......Further, I'd like a gen2 front end on the 89. It's not that I dislike the looks of the first generations, but I want the extra space in front of the engine that the later models provide.
Dutch doors would be nice, too, but I can live with the cargo doors that are there.
Anyway, it's all just in the thinking about it phase now.

Yup, famous last words LOLOLOL. I remember when I placed the order for the 502, I couldn't sleep for 2-3 nights. Not because of the anticipation of receiving the engine. It was more due to the realization that I had just plunked down $13,000 CAN on an engine for my truck. And I knew I'd be plunking down lots more in the near future. Can you believe that I budgeted around $18-$20, 000. DUMBASS!!!!

Oh, and the linkage set-up on mine is roughly the same. My cables go to an intermediate pivoting assembly, then to the tb. I'll post pics if you'd like.

[GEJ]

Rob,
Remember the pictures of the race cars I am part owner in that I showed you at NECO?.Got to tell you we have over the years we have had that much and more invested in the engines for them.We have adapted to building our own for about the last 11 years mainly because the more different eyes that check things out the more likely problems will be found.In any case,the sting in your wallet fades in not much time at all.And after all,old guys like us don't get a second chance,go for it and enjoy.It is what we spent our whole lifes to be able to do.

[SafariRob]

Point well taken, Gary. Since I'm in my mid-50s I find that I now have to factor in my mortality when thinking about a major project. It's both unavoidable and unnerving to think about.
I checked with the local Chevy dealer today about the cost of the RJ. They told me $8300! I'd like to buy local and all that, but spending over 3 grand more for the engine is beyond lunacy. A co-worker then called the Chevy dealer in his hometown and was quoted $5400 for the same engine--that I could go for, especially if that price included shipping.
BUT-- I've put a safety switch on this whole idea; I have to get some major projects done on the house first before I can seriously consider spending big jack on the van.
I think Betty had something to do with that safety switch.

[GEJ]

Rob,
Just for sh.t and gig's,go into the dealer that gave you the price of $8,300.Ask to speak to the guy that gave you that price.Say this-"Hi,I'm the fella that want to price out a RJ small block engine.(and he says yes)I understand you said the price was $8,300.(and again he says yep)I got one question for you then.(and he says well how can I help you?)Well if you consider how old I am and factor in your age,I got to tell you from all the years I've been around the last fish I have seen was in a can of tuna and I shave this face every day!!!!!.Go get your parts manager,tell him the low price I got is $4,800." LOL
To tell you the truth,Lingenfelter Performance Engineering did all the R&D for Gm for many,many years.It wouldn't surprize me if this is one of their engines.John is long gone and dead,but the business is still up and running.Gm is their biggest customers.They are located in Decatur,Indiana with a web page of http://www.lingenfelter.com.They are one of the few builder's that give a three yr or so many mile warenttee.When I called them last yr,the only thing they where not doing anymore was the programing part of the package,but where giving out a phone number of a company in Fl.They do sell to the public,but are pricey.I think you would find results from their engines just like the ones you have seen in the RJ.I got to meet John many yrs ago when we went to one of his auctions.Always thought is was strange to see other dyno shops run tests for the comic books like Hot Rod and alike of Small Block Chevys,when it was John's work to begin with.Thought that was funny.

I call the "rags" like Hot Rod,Car Craft,etc,comic books because there isn't much real streeting going on in what they write.Odd they leave out the down side of the engines they have built.The truth is they are means of a selling tool for products in them.Makes me wonder if the results are real too from the tests they run.What's the odds they never lost a engine in a dyno test?. Have you every seen them write about one they blew up?.When I worked in the dyno room in Chevy Tonn with all the support I had from the Chevy engineers I know we lost afew.Kind of makes me mad to think these "rags" take a advanage of the buying public.


Don't get me wrong about the RJ engine.I think it would be a great buy.It seems to be a torque monster and that is key to the street vans.
Well that is all I got for this post.Couldn't sleep anyways.I would be willing to bet you could drive the pricing down a lot if you press the right buttons for a deal.It's likely not much different than dealing when buying a new car I would think.

Oh-BTW,you know I work at Lowes.You could put the house projects on credit from them and still buy the engine.No pay-no interest for 6 months with a locked in interest rate given a credit rating.Called a projects window credit card. Check it out if you want.(Man, this gary never stops selling.LOL)

See ya Rob,

Gary.