Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

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lockdoc
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Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by lockdoc »

Originally posted on AS.com

This is for the 90-02 AWD models. I just replaced, my front calipers with 4wd 1 ton(or >8600 GVWR 3/4 ton) pickup units and the matching pads. Pads offer 10-15% more surface area and the calipers have larger pistons. If you speak "hydraulics" you'll know this equates to more pressure on the pads, for the same pedal effort. Stock disks work fine, but i suppose you could get them cross drilled, or slotted if you really felt the need. Make it real easy and buy 2 loaded calipers.

Doc

1998 3500 4x4 single rear wheels.

They are in and working fine. The only diffrence is the Piston is a tad larger. Pads are thicker width wise. Dont see why you couldnt just order the pads as the caliper case is the same size..just larger piston.

Upgrade brakes in.

If you find a BIG brake kit let me know as im always looking for better stopping power as i pull a big race trailer.


Piston internal is 69mm across and outside is 77.52mm

Pads messure 50mm x 121mm

Chartman

Well, I took the bait and tried it. I bought calipers and pads for a 92 K2500 8600 gvw. Bolted right in with no problems at all. I didn't plan on doing it so soon but I had to replace the brake lines and of course, the bleeders just snapped off when I tried to bleed them. Total cost with tax $71.65 US.

BTW, mine van is a 93.

AdvanceAutoParts numbers:

Cardone Lifetime caliper 184298

Cardone Lifetime caliper 184297

Silver wearever lifetime pads MKD370

I always buy the cheaper pads for my cars due to the hill I live on. They get used heavily and the good ones tend to eat up my rotors. Much easier\cheaper to replace the pads every year or two. They seem to work well but haven't driven much since I'm in the middle of a bunch of projects on the AWD.

Image

Lockdoc


Just put them on today. GM pt.# 18035930 and 18035931. These are reconditioned and come loaded with pads and hardware. My cost as an employee was 102.00 including tax. There is a core charge if you don't return your old ones.

Still bedding the pads. The AC Delco #'s are 18R741 and 18R742

BigAt
Well, it's been a coupla weeks and the results are great so far. Stopping power on my truck is 100% better. Keep in mind that I also changed over to 11" drums at the same time. I can tell though, the fronts are definitely clamping down with more force than before.
I have an issue with an annoying pull to the left when braking. Was much worse initially, but it seems to be slowing fading away. At the same time, the brakes were getting better and better (I guess they needed a proper break-in period). Another factor may be the readjustment I made to the rear drums.
Another issue I have is with front brake shudder. The rotors are only a year old, with less than 10,ooo miles on 'em. I had them turned just the same while doing the caliper swap so as to give the new, bigger pads a proper break-in surface. The shudder also seems less than before, but it's still there. So I've picked up a set of Powerslot rotors which I'll be mounting on ZZ this Saturday. I'm curious to see if the pull and/or shudder issues are resolved afterwards.

Peter


In fact yes, your observation is true that this would shift braking bias towards the front axle, proportionately based on the change in caliper piston cross-sectional area. BUT only if the front and rear hydraulic circuits were driven by one master cylinder circuit. However in reality it is not that simple. The master cylinder has two pistons mechanically joined providing fluid seperately to the front and rear circuits. enlarging the caliper pistons on the front circuit, also increases the required volume of fluid required to do the work, requiring more master cylinder stroke to supply that added volume, and increased pressure ratio. This means more stroke and volume applied to the rear circuit as well as the pistons for the two circuits are rigidly mechanically joined.

Whew... Now for the real world results.

Turns out this makes the rear brakes work harder(this time increasing pedal effort) and sooner too. They will wear faster, but as they often outlast 2-3 sets of front pads, this isn't a concern.

In fact if you were to put too large a caliper on the front the rear would lock before the front could really begin to work.

The astro/safari AWD calipers/pads are identical to similar year 1/2 ton and light 3/4 ton pickups. swapping 1 ton calipers/pads onto these is a common upgrade known by tens of thousands of professional mechanics. It's been done in dealerships. I just tried it on my Safari. My calipers cost 35$ each and they accepted the stock calipers as core returns. (They rebuild those too)

The next thing to try is 11 inch caprice police/taxi rear drum assemblys. Or disks, hmmm

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peter
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Post by peter »

Since when are darned brakes so complicated? I performed the recommended bedding-in of the pads and breaking-in of the rotors. You know, the $130/ea Powerslots? The initial result was impressive. No more pull to the left, and the brakes felt strong and shudder-free. The mistake I obviously made was to park the truck afterwards.
Now the truck shudders like California during a tremor. Cold, the brake pedal actually pulsates. Once the pads/rotors have warmed up, then the truck just shudders (enuf to cause stuff in my console to jump up and down), but I don't feel the pedal pulsations nearly as much.
I talked to a tech who claims my mistake was that I didn't use a torque wrench to tighten down my wheels. He claims that I shoulda torqued the wheels to approx. 120 lbs/ft. Not doing so is what caused my shiny new Powerslots to warp. WTF...? I've told my nsupplier about the problem, he's gonna contact Powerslot and then get back to me. Either they're gonna gimme another set of rotors, or credit me the ridiculous amount I spent on therm and supply me with good ole, reg'lar rotors. I'll know Monday. One thing fer sure, this has to be fixed before next weekend. I'm going to the track with ZZ on the 30th to finally get some time slips. I'm hoping that the Creator of all things wonderful will supply ole Petey with a strong enuf tailwind so's to allow me to get into the 13's. O:)
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Post by e7ats »

I'm with the tech. Not torquing the lug nuts down to the same amount will cause a shudder. Every time I get my vehicles back from getting the state inspection I retorque my nuts. One time I didn't and after 2 months the van started doing the shudder bug. Retorqued the nuts and after a few hard stops the shudder went away.
2003 AWD ASTRO Personal van

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Post by LiftedAWDAstro »

Definately get the new rotors and torque the lugs to 100 ft-#.
Current rides:
2013 Toyota Tundra DC 4x4
2008 Dodge Nitro 4x4
2005 Nissan Sentra 1.8S Special Edition

Mileage spreadsheet

Vans owned:
1986 Safari 2.5L 4 speed manual - scrapped
1995 Astro 2WD conversion 4.11 posi, shift kit, DHC rock rails - sold to Skippy
1998 Astro 4x4 D44, D60, NP231, full hydraulic system with 9k# Milemarker winch and snow plow - sold to Lockdoc
2003 Astro AWD all stock - traded for a 3/4 ton truck
2005 AWD, 4.10's - sold to skippy
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Post by peter »

You'd think that Powerslot would mention that in their extensive instructions? After all, they gave me 3 paragraphs on breaking in the darn rotors...
I checked the torque on 'em and they were at around 80 lbs/ft. I then used a troque wrench to set them to around 120 (which is sorta like closing the barn door after the horseys have run off #-o ). I'm hoping that Paul's comment of the rotors having straightened themselves out after retorquing applies here.
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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by ryanhettenbach »

is there any reason why this mod won't work on a '02 AWD?
1989 Cargo 5spd. Fiberglass Roof.
2002 AWD LS, white

LiftedAWDAstro
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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by LiftedAWDAstro »

Nope...It will work great on your 02 AWD. =D>
Current rides:
2013 Toyota Tundra DC 4x4
2008 Dodge Nitro 4x4
2005 Nissan Sentra 1.8S Special Edition

Mileage spreadsheet

Vans owned:
1986 Safari 2.5L 4 speed manual - scrapped
1995 Astro 2WD conversion 4.11 posi, shift kit, DHC rock rails - sold to Skippy
1998 Astro 4x4 D44, D60, NP231, full hydraulic system with 9k# Milemarker winch and snow plow - sold to Lockdoc
2003 Astro AWD all stock - traded for a 3/4 ton truck
2005 AWD, 4.10's - sold to skippy
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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by ryanhettenbach »

Nice! Thanks.
If that's the case, shouldn't this work on vans up to '04 (before they changed to 6 lug)?
1989 Cargo 5spd. Fiberglass Roof.
2002 AWD LS, white

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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by LiftedAWDAstro »

They went to 6 lug in 2003. 2002 is the last year this will work on.
Current rides:
2013 Toyota Tundra DC 4x4
2008 Dodge Nitro 4x4
2005 Nissan Sentra 1.8S Special Edition

Mileage spreadsheet

Vans owned:
1986 Safari 2.5L 4 speed manual - scrapped
1995 Astro 2WD conversion 4.11 posi, shift kit, DHC rock rails - sold to Skippy
1998 Astro 4x4 D44, D60, NP231, full hydraulic system with 9k# Milemarker winch and snow plow - sold to Lockdoc
2003 Astro AWD all stock - traded for a 3/4 ton truck
2005 AWD, 4.10's - sold to skippy

Moreforles
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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by Moreforles »

would the calipers on full sized 3/4 ton be any better than the ones currently on astro/safari or are they interchangeable.. :-k

I just had new loaded calipers installed on my 3/4 conversion van around march, and only have 5 or 6000 miles on them

would it be a simple exchange or much more too it.....? with the added weight in my Safari, better breaking could be use full

and if front caliper helps, would there be any benefit to changing rear set up as well.....? :-k
2000 Astro, passenger van. Converted into a cargo van, used for Carpet cleaning (10 lbs of crap, in a 5 lb bag)

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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by Moreforles »

reread original post as noticed you said 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton are identical, so disregard last question..... =D> (skimming/speed reading, caught up with me again.... not the first time, wont be the last..........) #-o
2000 Astro, passenger van. Converted into a cargo van, used for Carpet cleaning (10 lbs of crap, in a 5 lb bag)

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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by Moreforles »

changed my front pads on the Safari today... found out three things...

first - \:D/ I have a AWD Safari and didn't even know it.... (free upgrade)

second - #-o pads for AWD are smaller than those for RWD - a trip back to Murray's for and exchange.... same price apparently - so even swap.

third - #-o different rotors too..... thought about another trip to exchange those too, but had too much to do today. I was surprised that the AWD uses smaller rotors with out the studs attached to it and the smaller one was a little MORE expensive than the larger one for the RWD models... you would think it would be the other way around. not a big enough difference to worry about though...

I just changed the pads, then exchanged the rotors for future use. I'll either pull the tires off again in a couple weeks and do it right when I have more time, or just wait until these pads are nearly worn out and then change both pads, rotors and bearings....

The new pads work much better than the old ones (I mean even before I heard the scrubbing sound) some vibration and shimmying now when braking at high speeds, so I'll take the advise I read earlier on this site, and torc to 100 foot pounds.
2000 Astro, passenger van. Converted into a cargo van, used for Carpet cleaning (10 lbs of crap, in a 5 lb bag)

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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by COMP »

AWD is smaller ,,crazy

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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by COMP »

Moreforles wrote:changed my front pads on the Safari today... found out three things...

first - \:D/ I have a AWD Safari and didn't even know it.... (free upgrade)

second - #-o pads for AWD are smaller than those for RWD - a trip back to Murray's for and exchange.... same price apparently - so even swap.

third - #-o different rotors too..... thought about another trip to exchange those too, but had too much to do today. I was surprised that the AWD uses smaller rotors with out the studs attached to it and the smaller one was a little MORE expensive than the larger one for the RWD models... you would think it would be the other way around. not a big enough difference to worry about though...

I just changed the pads, then exchanged the rotors for future use. I'll either pull the tires off again in a couple weeks and do it right when I have more time, or just wait until these pads are nearly worn out and then change both pads, rotors and bearings....

The new pads work much better than the old ones (I mean even before I heard the scrubbing sound) some vibration and shimmying now when braking at high speeds, so I'll take the advise I read earlier on this site, and torc to 100 foot pounds.


did it help ???

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Re: Bigger front brakes for AWD vans

Post by Moreforles »

torque didn't change anything, so either hot spots in different location on left and right rotor, it shimmy

Something loose under there (which I think might be part of the problem)

or third possibility, both....



* I have a torque wrench, and I wasn't afraid to use it either, although it took a couple hours and a bunch of griping to locate it.... (next house will have a garage, or barn or both, or I'm not moving in...... hate scrounging for tools, when ever its time to work on something....)
2000 Astro, passenger van. Converted into a cargo van, used for Carpet cleaning (10 lbs of crap, in a 5 lb bag)
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