Chevy & GMC Vans

ahll be danged, Monte! haven't seen you round in a while. Well collifornia is always on the cutting edge (till they bleed to death, which apparently is going to be soon).
I got my basic obdII code reader for about 25 bucks, so screw autozone. (ironically...at autozone )

California the origin of many stupid laws the for some dumb reason spread.

My ScanGaugeII rocks though.

The EGR makes lot of sens!
For the code reading, unfortunatly, we don't have any Advance Part Zone in Canada.

Yesterday I went for a short little ride with the van, just to make sure that the brake discs won't rust. Good news! I finaly got the engine check light on!
So that will help to get a code.
I cleaned the van, filled up the tank. As usual, the van started quickly, runs fine on idle, runs fine on highway or on high RPM. But poorly when it shifts, or running slowly..

It was the first time that I went for a ride since the holidays.

Sounds like a stupid little problem to me.
If I can find it!

I will bring the van to the dealership this week..
I will just try to clean the EGR, just for fun, this evening..
we never know!

Thanks for the help guys...

JF

Oki, I finaly got the code!
I called a friend who bought a code reader, we plugged it on his laptop computer, and got the code P0134, wich is the O2 sensor system, no signal on Sensor 1 bank 1.
On the OBD2 program, the symptoms looks like pretty similar to me!
-Misfire, engine running poorly, bad fuel consumption, black smoke from the exhaust, shutter.

Now another question, there's 3 O2 sensors on the '97 safari with the 4.3 2WD.
Which one is the wrong one here?
Sensor 1 Bank 1 refer to which one?
I don't want to replace the 3 sensors for nothing this time.
any idea?

Thanks!

Bank 1 is the left (drivers) side of the engine - where #1 cylinder is.
Bank 2 is the right (passenger) side of the engine - where # 2 cylinder is.
Position 1 is before the cat convertor.
Position 2 is after the cat convertor.

Ok.. Problem fixed, but I'm not sure if I want to tell you what happened.
We got a pretty bad snow storm here, because I don't have a garage, I didn,t wanted to fix that outside, so I left the van to a Canadian Tire repair shop. They have all the parts and tool. So I asked them a direct order to replace the O2 sensor that failed. They gave me an estimate of 175$ for the labor and part, which was OK for me.
The day after, they called me telling me that the problem was not with the O2 sensor but the #3 Cyl misfire caused by a defective spark plug (I installed new plugs 2 weeks ago).
They said that the van is running fine and I can get it back for less than 100$ for labor and the plug.
Once there, they said "let us do a final test drive, it will take 5 minutes".
And they left..and came back to the garage with the laptop decoder..and decided that if the van was running fine, they still had two or 3 fault codes to troubleshoot.
I wanted to go for a ride with them to verify by my own...but they never allowed me that.
Pissed off, I left and waited for them to call me back.
They finaly called me to tell me that the final cause of all that was the timing chain that is worn out and loose causing an off timing.
They said that they can either readjust the timing on the distributor without any warranty, doing some "grinding" because the timjing is not adjustable on this model..
Or replace the timing chain for 1300$ Canadian
If I walk away with the distributor adjustment, I will have to pay 650$ of labor for 5 hours of troubleshooting and parts and the code reading.
Impossible to pull the car out of the garage without paying them, I got screwed totaly, I paid and left pretty frustrated
The van runs fine now..
But is it possible???
What's your oponion on this story?
If I have a minute, I want to pull out the dog house and check the distributor if they really worked on that. To grind the distributor to allow it to turn and make it adjustable, I have strong doubts that this thing as been a scam.
You guys will tell me if I have been totaly screwed by Canadian Tire..

so I have to ask again, cuz I don't see it anywhere in the post, what year van is this, and how many miles on it? for a point of reference, my 89 has 138k miles and the original timing chain.

Jeff,

This is a classic example of why it is sometimes cheaper (yes, I said cheaper) to take your vehicle to a dealership. You were not treated fairly by the Canadian Tire shop that you dealt with. When you take a vehicle into a shop, you sign the vehicle in authorizing them to work on your vehicle. They should only do what you have authorized them to do - nothing more. If they do unauthorized work, that is thier problem - not yours. (well that is the code that our dealerships operate by) You should not be paying them to learn how to diagnose the problem on your '97 Safari. Instead, pay someone who knows how to diagnose your '97 Safari.

For example:
If you had brought this in for me to repair, you would have been told up front that it would be $60 - $120 for diagnosis, PERIOD - no more unless we ok'ed it with you first. If we spend more time than that on it, no problem - that is our choice, we just can't charge you for it. Had I looked at it, I would have diagnosed the P0134 as a faulty O2 sensor & the P0303, well the first thing I would have wanted to try would have been a CMP retard reset. This is a common fault on these engines & the evidence that this is required can be seen in the scan data information. The CMP retard data parameter on the scan tool should be 0 +/- 2 degrees & most times they are out of spec. This occurs because the valvetrain components wear (like the timing chain) & cause the crankshaft & camshaft sensors to be out of time/sync. I have seen them out as much as -17 degrees (that was on a vehicle that came to us from another shop after they could not figure it out)

So,
0.5 - 1.0 hour for diagnosis
0.5 for O2 sensor replacement
1.0 for removal/modification/adjustment of the CMP sensor (aka distributor hold down clamp)

Dealership would have been cheaper......

thing is though James, we aren't all lucky enough to have you working at our local dealership, man, that would be a dream . we can't lump all dealers into the same boat as yours, we can't lump all techs in the same honesty/knowledge boat as you either ...

of the 15 - 20 techs that I deal with almost daily from my local GM, Ford & Chrysler ... some of them are great guys that are really cool to talk with and such... there would be only two that I would allow even touch my vehicle. None from GM, one from Ford and one from Chrysler.

i heard two stories just yesterday from two different customers about the local GM. #1 - had an 05 sierra 4x4.. heard a slight grinding up front also due for oil change. his wife took it in they did the oil change first. was told needs pads/rotors all the way around. i won't even knock you over with the quote. she said leave it for now... husband took over to a friends garage that night and checked the brakes. all pads wearing even, rotors good (even rear which are always bad on these trucks) turned out to be a small piece of metal that must have flipped up off the road and was sitting wedged against the caliper touching the rotor. either tech didn't see it.. or saw it and didn't care to remove it. guy grabbed a pair of pliers pulled it out, grinding noise gone.

#2 - not sure on vehicle. was told head gaskets were shot, quote was > $2000 ... didn't get complete story on this one, not sure why she was even there.... car not smoking, running fine. had her son check it when he got back from wherever he was out of town and there was nothing wrong with the engine at all. i didn't get any more details on this one.

The problem that we have in Montreal about the GM dealers, it's that since they went on chapter 11, they closed most of their dealerships.
There's a Canadian Tire every mile here, but the there's probably less than 3 or 4 GM dealers on the island. The Canadian tire store was more closer to me..but again, that's my mistake and if I have to go see a garage again, I will rather spend half an hour in a traffic jam to drop the car at the dealer than to the canadian tire next door.

Now, beside of that, he never sharged me on a O2 sensor replacement.
I checked the codes with my friend came with his laptop computer and the OBDII USB plug.
The only code that we saw was the O2 sensor.

Now how come it went so far, like a 5 hours labor and an adjusment of the CMP sensor?
You can't answer..
My question here, does the CMP is designed to be adjustable or they had to modify it to make it adjustable?
Does a misfire on the #3 and the #5 cylinder will cause a P0134 code with the O2 sensor?

Actualy, I paid for 5 hours of labor, they kept the van for 3 days.
They charged me for 2 spark plugs at 15$ each.
They charged another 60$ for the code reading.
In the same time, they said that they cleaned the rear brake linings and adjusted the brakes because of a noise from the back.. ???? I was there for an O2 sensor problem!
They took the time to glue the temperature knob on the dashboard that was loose.
See, we gonna charge him 5 hours so make him happy with those stupid little details...

As soon as the weather is better, I will jack the front and inspect if they changed the O2 sensor without telling me...

Thanks everyone for the help on this problem.