700R4 temp monitoring

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LiftedAWDAstro
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by LiftedAWDAstro »

I'll post up my experience. In the SPB (a 98 so it has a 4L60E) that Lockdoc has now, I switched to Amsoil synthetic probably around 100k. I had done regular maintenance all along so it was no big deal. I also had a temp sensor in the test port. Towing heavy could easily see the gauge pegged at 250*. I never pulled over...no need to. I just let off and let the tranny cool down by keeping the torque converter locked in either 3rd or OD. It really depends on what you have for fluid and how long you hold it at said temp. That van still has the original trans and over 160K VERY HARD miles!

I personally think constant shifting is more detrimental than heat spikes. In every vehicle I own, if the trans is shifting from OD to 3rd or 4th and back often, I drop down a gear or 2. In my Astro I run in 3rd much of the time if I am under 50 mph. No need for OD at that speed. It just lags the engine and the constant shifting under load creates heat and wear.

In my 2003 Ram 2500 which has the Hemi engine and 5 speed auto, I put a sensor in the test port as well as in the hot line going to the cooler. I switch between them and find there can be a great difference. The hottest I have seen is from the cooler line and it went a little past 250* but the I was towing our camper in city traffic on a 90 degree day. Once on the road it cooled right down to 170* and stayed there. This temp will change quite fast. The temp in the test port will not as it is more of an average. Any monitoring will be a plus so location is not all that important.

Basically, put the sensor in the test port and when you see 200* start letting off a little. If you run full synthetic fluid, 200* isn't as much a concern as the fluid won't break down. Once you have the sensor in and start watching it, you'll get an idea what your trans is doing and how hot it gets how fast as soon as you start hammering on it. You'll find the slow down point quickly. :yawinkle: The rest of these guys are making it confusing! :muhaha: :muhaha: :muhaha:
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MrJames
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MrJames »

LiftedAWDAstro wrote:......................and..................then.............and.......... The rest of these guys are making it confusing! :muhaha: :muhaha: :muhaha:
We are making it confusing because we can't agree :swords: and don't earn the big bucks to speak in elegant terms like you. :D

Thanks :cheers:
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MountainManJoe
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MountainManJoe »

That's some good advice from Lifted. If you're driving along some rolling hills, and you notice frequent shifting, or if you're hill climbing steadily for a long time, it helps to shift down. (I think they even tell you that in the owner's manual somewhere). I'm not 100% sure, but I think it increases the pump speed which gets the fluid moving quicker.
astroturf wrote:A great read on the subject...
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/gene ... ewall.html
Enjoy, Jim
Avoid making oversimplifications from charts. In the real world you don't have time to worry about fluid life. When you work, are you always thinking about if you're going to be tired or sore? No, you just get the job done.

It's not as complicated as it sounds and experience is the best teacher. This is my advice: The most important thing is to add cooler. That will prolong the transmission's lifetime. You CAN get a gauge, and any will work. HOW the transmission reacts is more important than the exact temperature, and you just have to get a feel for it. (After a while you barely pay attention to it). If you don't use a gauge, and you pay attention to the way you drive, and do regular maintenance, you will be just fine. If the coolant starts to boil, then you need to stop.
MrJames wrote:I am including two photos
Interesting pics. Thanks.
MrJames wrote: ATF Radiator Heat Exchanger because it warms cold fluid and cools warm fluid to maintain a optimal temperature operating range.
I question this warming effect. My coolant takes a good 10 mins to get up to operating temp. I'm pretty sure the tranny gets there quicker.

brokenwrench
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by brokenwrench »

Not sure how Lifted AWD clarified anything, more of opinion and anecdotal information.

There are however undisputable facts;

1) manual and common sense say tow and heavy load in 3rd gear. my newer van has a button on the end of the gear selector that is pushed for towing. downshifts and apparently boosts apply pressure.

2) factory service interval for changing transmission fluid is too long. most of the miracle of alternate named fluids, "Amsoil" is not from the intrinsic qualities of the oil but from putting new oil in. Rather than waste money on expensive oil, change it more often.

3) inline filtration is imperative for long life as in-pan filters peak at 60-80 um whereas inline filters clean to 15-20 um. bore wear is caused by particles around 35 um.

4) In engines that have a 195 degree thermostat, your transmission fluid will never be optimally cooled in the tube that lives in the radiator.

5) Any aftermarket or factory fluid cooler is better than the factory setup.

6) Any temperature sender is better than no sender.

7) 200 degrees is within the factory noted operating range. like an engine, cooling is more efficient moving, downshift and slowdown, starting on a hill in the mountains is way harder on heat gain than continuing.

8) put on the biggest transmission pan that you can get

9)clean out your radiators by hose spraying them as necessary

10) consider a 165 degree thermostat if you are going to keep your radiator transmission cooler setup without additional cooler if towing. engine temperature can heat up transmission fluid if engine gets too hot.

11) putting remote dual filters can add 1 .5 litres extra capacity
Last edited by brokenwrench on Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MountainManJoe »

MrJames wrote:Maybe timelessbeing will post his temperature graph here as well to give insight to the non metrically challenged.
It's over here: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=5823&p=64593#p64593
I made it after doing some research into the subject. I gathered the information from many sources to get a rough idea. I use a Scangauge to monitor the internal OEM sensor.

The Celsius scale actually uses nice, easy to remember and visualise numbers! Water freezes at 0 and boils at 100. Operating temp for engine coolant is around 92.

In case you're wondering, these numbers were taken from the GM 4L60E tech manual:
The PCM inhibits TCC apply until transmission fluid temperature reaches approximately 29°C (84°F). Also, when fluid temperatures exceed 135°C (275°F), the PCM commands TCC apply at all times in fourth gear, as opposed to having a scheduled apply. Applying the TCC reduces fluid temperatures created by the fluid coupling in the converter.
Again, don't take my picture too seriously. The most important thing is to avoid those temperature "peaks".

By the way I do enjoy the discussion (even some of the not-so-useful stuff :rolleyes: )
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MountainManJoe »

brokenwrench wrote:factory service interval for changing transmission fluid is too long.
brokenwrench wrote:inline filtration is imperative for long life
Meh. Splitting hairs.
brokenwrench wrote:engine temperature can heat up transmission fluid if engine gets too hot.
Really? My coolant temps are a lot more stable than ATF temps.

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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by astroturf »

brokenwrench wrote:There are however undisputable facts
No disrespect meant, But when someone starts off like this (see above). I tend to turn a deaf ear.

So, I won't even try to dispute yer facts.

Jim

PS If you wanted to discuss the points you made though, I would be more than willing.
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MrJames »

OMG, I hear music. It is Sonny and Cher singing "And The Beat Goes On" Don't get me wrong because I do subscribe to the theory that there may be no perfect answer to anything.

I also believe that we have reached more conclusions then we had before my summary.

Sorry Gary, but who said life was easy to decipher ? Some may have to read what was said and form their own opinions instead of expecting instant micro waved answers.

I am new here and have not searched every topic ever posted but I do conclude that anything in the past should be rolled up to a readable final sticky product. That includes you timelessbeing by not making us go to the Way Back Machine of your other post. I saw nice images there that may be helpful here.

Astroturf, I concur with brokenwrench that there are some "undisputable facts". Question(s) remain as to what they are. I hope that we can formulate them into a concise format that could be included in the Tranny Heat Issues For Dummies book.

I may have inflamed some but I hope that I ignited a desire to make this the best topic in the best forum.

Carry On, Nothing else to see here. :heart:

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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by astroturf »

MrJames wrote: Astroturf, I concur with brokenwrench that there are some "undisputable facts"
Does that mean then that you agree with his list of undisputable facts relating to this discussion?

Or, Perhaps, you may agree with some of his points, while questioning or disagreeing with others?

Please clarify.

Thanks, Jim
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MountainManJoe »

Sonny and who? Image LOL
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1Gary
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by 1Gary »

MrJames wrote:OMG, I hear music. It is Sonny and Cher singing "And The Beat Goes On" Don't get me wrong because I do subscribe to the theory that there may be no perfect answer to anything.

I also believe that we have reached more conclusions then we had before my summary.

Sorry Gary, but who said life was easy to decipher ? Some may have to read what was said and form their own opinions instead of expecting instant micro waved answers.

I am new here and have not searched every topic ever posted but I do conclude that anything in the past should be rolled up to a readable final sticky product. That includes you timelessbeing by not making us go to the Way Back Machine of your other post. I saw nice images there that may be helpful here.

Astroturf, I concur with brokenwrench that there are some "undisputable facts". Question(s) remain as to what they are. I hope that we can formulate them into a concise format that could be included in the Tranny Heat Issues For Dummies book.

I may have inflamed some but I hope that I ignited a desire to make this the best topic in the best forum.

Carry On, Nothing else to see here. :heart:
I feel your input to this forum is easily understood as one that knows what he is talking about and welcome it.I look forward to more posts and thanks for sharing.The old saying is"together we'll grow old" applies as web friends.
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MrJames
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MrJames »

astroturf wrote:
MrJames wrote: Astroturf, I concur with brokenwrench that there are some "undisputable facts"
Does that mean then that you agree with his list of undisputable facts relating to this discussion?

Or, Perhaps, you may agree with some of his points, while questioning or disagreeing with others?

Please clarify.

Thanks, Jim
Jim

I am happy to clarify my statement to "you". I believe the second sentence of my statement to you implies that I agree with some and not all of what was said throughout this topic.

‘Astroturf, I concur with brokenwrench that there are some "undisputable facts". Question(s) remain as to what they are.'

I also strongly disagree with some statements and I am unsure of others.

For example, I disagree that measuring transmission temperatures on the return line alone is NOT very helpful nor is the removal of the radiator heat exchanger a wise choice.

Face to face conversation reveals more than words written in a forum. At least you know how much one has consumed and are therefore more able to forgive curt and brash writing given intake amounts. Before this is misinterpreted, I am talking about me here. Prost !!! :drinkers:


You are too kind Gary. Please remain here as the "Heartbeat of America".

Edit add word Not to my statement
Last edited by MrJames on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MrJames »

Caution !, brace yourself for another OMG by me nearby at your local supermarket. It seems to this new person that this topic of transmission temperature and coolers has been discussed before as the old topics seem to be cropping up again "all of a sudden to me" from years ago.

I have been attempting to respond to oldsmoker's post about the THM700R and its offsprings.

Shall I go out on a limb here ? Is there a problem with the stickys ? Are the topic titles lacking ? Are the forum categories remiss ? Why are we reinventing the wheel ? Why is this important issue not obvious enough ? Is there a problem with the forum structure ? Should this vital information be condensed ? You tell stupid me, please.

In my opinion a forum is a place to find answers and not a place to pout or puff. Is there anyway to improve ? What other issues are lost in the atmosphere ?

Please ban me if I am out of line here but I believe there is room for improvement.
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MountainManJoe »

Take a seat, grasshopper. Clearly you are not yet familiar with our most important rule. Rule 6B! A post is not worthy of stickiness until someone actually does it, and posts pics. Otherwise, it didn't happen. :D

But seriously, if you want to write a technical article, then I'm all for it. When you're done just get a moderator to clean it up and maybe it can be stickied. Chemist wrote a whole series and they're pretty good.
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Re: 700R4 temp monitoring

Post by MrJames »

timelessbeing wrote:Take a seat, grasshopper. Clearly you are not yet familiar with our most important rule. Rule 6B! .............
Sick is grasshopper.
Garden wrong he pounce into.
Lick off much strange pollen and plant material that cover legs.
Silly jumping around when eyes open.
Excited too much.
Calm down need.
Capable not write rule 6B subject.
Nonsensical bug is he.
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